Another nice guys rant:

Source: http://www.smcm.edu/users/samatheson/fustrating.htm

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It’s damn frustrating that girls always seem to go for the Asshole. The Asshole knows how the game is played though, all he wants is sex, but he pretends to only want to be with the Girl. The Asshole will act nice, friendly, and even listen to the Girl… until they get into what they’re after. The girl thinks they are in love with the Asshole, however when they realize what a jerk the he really is, they pretend the Asshole is actually nice inside. The girl then tries to change the Asshole into a nice guy, but the Asshole will always be a jerk. She gets upset and goes to The Nice Guy to complain about the Asshole. But she claims to love the Asshole … now this is where the theory begins. She doesn’t want to look like she is easy so she wont dump the Asshole right away; instead she will stay with the Asshole. Girls are idiots. They don’t realize that The Nice Guy has been there all along. He never had to pretend to be a good guy to get girls because he is naturally like that. However, girls don’t see it for some reason or another. They look at The Nice Guy as a friend, a trusted companion to whom they can tell their sad story to about the Asshole, their boyfriend.

The Nice Guy isn’t that naïve. Ok, perhaps he does want something a bit more physical, but sex is a pretty strong driving force for any male. The thing is, The Nice Guy also wants to be with the Girl and spend time with her. The main problem seems to be that since he is a good guy he keeps listening. Since girls get attached to things that pay attention to them, they think of the nice guy only as a friend, just a friend. They don’t say, “Oh he’s hot” or “I wouldn’t mind going out on a date with him” about The Nice Guy, they just want the emotional support. When the Girl gets emotional support from The Nice Guy, they don’t need it from the Asshole. The Nice guy gets the shit end of the stick while the Asshole gets the Girl. You start to wonder if being The Nice Guy is really the route to take to get the Girl.

Perhaps another reason why girls fall for the Asshole is because assholes ignore the Girl they are with. The women wonder, “Why isn’t he paying attention to me?” so they explore why. They poke and prod and get closer to the Asshole. They start to get easier with each attempt to get closer. The Asshole finally says, “I’ve let this beauty dangle long enough.” It is then he puts on his charade and the Girl feels like she has won him … even thought all she has won is the Asshole. Once you have gone down the path as The Nice Guy or a “listener” you can’t turn back. The girl will always go after the Asshole because there will always be The Nice Guy there to listen. Once you realize that you are a “listener” you cant do anything about it; just pack up and close shop. There is no way you will get the Girl. Ever. There isn’t and never will be a situation where The Nice Guy will get the girl he has a crush on. It just doesn’t work like that. The girl wont “come to her senses” and realize what an asshole her boyfriend is like in the movies … instead she will just go after another asshole, and unless you stop being The Nice Guy, she will never go after you. Women complain that there are no nice guys in the world. Right. They are obviously not looking hard enough because there are nice guys all over the place. Girls aren’t looking for nice guys; they say they are but they’re not. They are looking for the perfect Asshole, but there is no such thing as a perfect Asshole.

All in all, the nice guy gets the shaft. To all the Girls out there with boyfriends that don’t treat you with respect, that don’t listen to you, and that don’t care about you, think about this; look next to you. The guy that has been standing next to you the whole time is the guy you have been looking for. He is what you want your Asshole to be like. He knows more about you than you know about yourself… because he has listened to it all.

I only read the concluding paragraph... barf.

there is no such thing as a perfect Asshole

I beg to differ

All in all, the nice guy gets the shaft.
Nice guys are always playing catcher. After I'm done with them though I usually turn them into big assholes.

I only read the concluding paragraph... barf.

I skimmed the rest but yeah, *barfs on computer* *computer starts sparking*.

I actually read this BEFORE I found the LT and the forums. And at the time I agreed with it. :roll: How young and naive.

As far as advice to women, its not that bad. I know a lot of women who act just like the description in the article, and can be somewhat miserable about it (the only one who I let bitch to me about it is a girl who grew up with me and I have serious westermark with). On the other hand, if an IW reads that and decides that he's doing just fine, that's bad, because very few IPs are ever actually going to follow that advice and hook up with them.

As far as advice to women, its not that bad. I know a lot of women who act just like the description in the article, and can be somewhat miserable about it (the only one who I let bitch to me about it is a girl who grew up with me and I have serious westermark with). On the other hand, if an IW reads that and decides that he's doing just fine, that's bad, because very few IPs are ever actually going to follow that advice and hook up with them.

By very few do you mean so few as to be a statistically insignifigant quantity?

As far as advice to women, its not that bad. I know a lot of women who act just like the description in the article, and can be somewhat miserable about it (the only one who I let bitch to me about it is a girl who grew up with me and I have serious westermark with). On the other hand, if an IW reads that and decides that he's doing just fine, that's bad, because very few IPs are ever actually going to follow that advice and hook up with them.

By very few do you mean so few as to be a statistically insignifigant quantity?

Its not our fault IW's are boring and passive.

Seriously though, the three sentences I read of the OP put me off my breakfast.

Statistically insignificant in that I don't think I can remember ever hearing of a single case where an IP/IW relationship has become a stable long term dating relationship. Usually what an IP does that works is dumps the IW, finds a guy who isn't an total whore but at least isn't a total OB, and finally gets to live happily for at least a little while. So yeah, girls who date bad boys and get burned by it should look for nicer guys, but IWs don't get your hope up that your IP will hook up with you.

As far as advice to women, its not that bad. I know a lot of women who act just like the description in the article, and can be somewhat miserable about it (the only one who I let bitch to me about it is a girl who grew up with me and I have serious westermark with). On the other hand, if an IW reads that and decides that he's doing just fine, that's bad, because very few IPs are ever actually going to follow that advice and hook up with them.

By very few do you mean so few as to be a statistically insignifigant quantity?

Its not our fault IW's are boring and passive.

Seriously though, the three sentences I read of the OP put me off my breakfast.

Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?
With men this statement applies in that why marry a chick when she is putting out without a committment
With womenthis statement means why fuck a guy if he'll listen to all her BS, be a shoulder to cry on, etc. without her having to have sex with him.

Nice guys are pussies.

This diatribe would have been far more accurate had it been entitled "Low Value males finish last."

I finish last...takes me forever to get off...

Once you have gone down the path as The Nice Guy or a “listener” you can’t turn back. The girl will always go after the Asshole because there will always be The Nice Guy there to listen. Once you realize that you are a “listener” you cant do anything about it; just pack up and close shop. There is no way you will get the Girl. Ever. There isn’t and never will be a situation where The Nice Guy will get the girl he has a crush on. It just doesn’t work like that. The girl wont “come to her senses” and realize what an asshole her boyfriend is like in the movies … instead she will just go after another asshole, and unless you stop being The Nice Guy, she will never go after you. Women complain that there are no nice guys in the world. Right. They are obviously not looking hard enough because there are nice guys all over the place. Girls aren’t looking for nice guys; they say they are but they’re not. They are looking for the perfect Asshole, but there is no such thing as a perfect Asshole.

All in all, the nice guy gets the shaft.
Isn't this the foundation of IW.com? Don't say "Girls go after alphas, not jerks" because it's really not true. It just so happens that jerks are a subset of alphas, and interestingly enough, the nice alphas don't get the girl either...mainly because of the law of fluctuating attraction.

Which is the tragedy of mankind. Oh, how I hate these bitches ...

Isn't this the foundation of IW.com? Don't say "Girls go after alphas, not jerks" because it's really not true. It just so happens that jerks are a subset of alphas, and interestingly enough, the nice alphas don't get the girl either...mainly because of the law of fluctuating attraction.

This is totally false. If given a choice, women will go for good alphas over bad alphas. Their darwinian evolutionary demands it. They need somebody stable enough to provide resources. If needed, she will split the duties between an asshole alpha and a naive beta. But ideally, she will go for a good alpha.

PS: It's good to have some n00bs at the site like Grif and petrarch. It keeps us old farts on our toes.

Isn't this the foundation of IW.com? Don't say "Girls go after alphas, not jerks" because it's really not true. It just so happens that jerks are a subset of alphas, and interestingly enough, the nice alphas don't get the girl either...mainly because of the law of fluctuating attraction.

This is totally false. If given a choice, women will go for good alphas over bad alphas. Their darwinian evolutionary demands it. They need somebody stable enough to provide resources. If needed, she will split the duties between an asshole alpha and a naive beta. But ideally, she will go for a good alpha.
Eh, that's debateable. This is assuming that a woman will immediately know what a good alpha looks like. Given that they don't, they generally just go for juggling a bad alpha and a naive beta. This happens when a guy's alpha, but it's beneath him to be a jerk, so the jerk can just be a jerk and thus win out over him, given that he's both an alpha and a jerk, while the good alpha's just alpha.

Also, why would a good beta be worse than a bad alpha? I don't see a beta as necessarily supplicating all the time, just respectful enough to not push without knowing that it's okay, and insightful enough to lead steadily. By the definitions and general tone here, that would be a beta person, because he looks for permission (from someone who has all rights to give it/not give it) rather than doing something and then making up for it later, and leads by presence rather than action. But what you're saying is that a guy who treats a girl right but is respectful of her boundaries is worse than a guy who treats her poorly but makes her feel like a sexual creature who guys are willing to pursue at high risk to themselves.


PS: It's good to have some n00bs at the site like Grif and petrarch. It keeps us old farts on our toes.
I kinda resent this comment; it's not that I don't know what you're saying, or that I don't understand that it's done, it's that I see it differently, in that it shouldn't be the case.

As far as advice to women, its not that bad. I know a lot of women who act just like the description in the article, and can be somewhat miserable about it (the only one who I let bitch to me about it is a girl who grew up with me and I have serious westermark with). On the other hand, if an IW reads that and decides that he's doing just fine, that's bad, because very few IPs are ever actually going to follow that advice and hook up with them.

By very few do you mean so few as to be a statistically insignifigant quantity?

Its not our fault IW's are boring and passive.

Seriously though, the three sentences I read of the OP put me off my breakfast.

Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?
With men this statement applies in that why marry a chick when she is putting out without a committment
With womenthis statement means why fuck a guy if he'll listen to all her BS, be a shoulder to cry on, etc. without her having to have sex with him.
Yeah, but if you're a man, saying this/acting like that makes you an insensitive manwhore jerk.

Yeah, but if you're a man, saying this/acting like that makes you an insensitive manwhore jerk.

And women won't mind if the guy who says it has high value.


Because generally speaking women don't care about a man's personality, he can say what he wants as long as he has the value to back it up. This is what low value males don't seem to understand. It's not that jerklike or rude behavior inherently draws the women, because if a low value male manifested that behavior he would be ignored or dealt with contemptuously by most women.

It's that the males who manifest these personality characteristics already have high value traits which are the primary draw to most women, and if they just so happen to have those other personality traits, then they might be interesting on some level, but they aren't particularly relevant.

Because generally speaking women don't care about a man's personality, he can say what he wants as long as he has the value to back it up. This is what low value males don't seem to understand. It's not that jerklike or rude behavior inherently draws the women, because if a low value male manifested that behavior he would be ignored or dealt with contemptuously by most women.


I maintain that women can't really tell easily which men have high value and which don't, so they look at secondary indicators (confidence, excess testosterone, women gathering around him, etc).

Thing is, any number of things could be evolutionarily beneficial - being slightly taller than the rest, having more intelligence, being more resistant to certain diseases, having a skeletal structure that gives you better balance, etc.

So, there is no one thing that will definitively tell a woman that a man is superior biologically. Which is why they wait until somebody else figures it out for them, whether the man himself or other women.

Even the indicators of excess testosterone - broad jaw, excess hair, etc - are only considered attractive because excess testosterone acts as an immunosuppressor, meaning any man who has it and still does well must have some greater biological factor to compensate for it.

Men, on the other hand, have some pretty easy to determine indicators to go on - full, healthy looking breasts, wide hips, clear, young looking skin, etc.

This is why the "fake it 'til you make it" strategy works - you're essentially conning women into thinking you have some advantage that you don't really have.

Yeah, but if you're a man, saying this/acting like that makes you an insensitive manwhore jerk.

And women won't mind if the guy who says it has high value.
Well, what about the man himself? Maybe he minds that he's acting like an insensitive manwhore jerk? I'd qualify as a "low-value" male, so I only would have that one thing going for me - I stick to my principles. One of them is to never act like a jerk unless I can't help it or don't realize it. Just because a woman is okay with it, doesn't mean I'm going to go along with it.

A measuring stick for behavior shouldn't be "whatever chicks let you get away with is a-ok."

Yeah, but if you're a man, saying this/acting like that makes you an insensitive manwhore jerk.

And women won't mind if the guy who says it has high value.
Well, what about the man himself? Maybe he minds that he's acting like an insensitive manwhore jerk? I'd qualify as a "low-value" male, so I only would have that one thing going for me - I stick to my principles. One of them is to never act like a jerk unless I can't help it or don't realize it. Just because a woman is okay with it, doesn't mean I'm going to go along with it.

A measuring stick for behavior shouldn't be "whatever chicks let you get away with is a-ok."

Eh, you're a bitch.

EDIT:

Here's the thing, man. If you are sitting here saying that you don't want to act a certain way to get laid, or whatever, you are more or less saying that your beliefs are more important than you getting laid - in which case, please, shut the hell up, because you are the one preventing yourself from getting laid by your very own 'moral compass', which really doesn't matter in the end.

Also, you don't have to be an insensitive jerk, you just have to be a man, something that a lot of guys out there have a hard time doing, since they think that to impress people they have to suck up to those people.

Fuckin kids like you disgust me. Please, grow a pair.

I maintain that women can't really tell easily which men have high value and which don't, so they look at secondary indicators (confidence, excess testosterone, women gathering around him, etc).

Thing is, any number of things could be evolutionarily beneficial - being slightly taller than the rest, having more intelligence, being more resistant to certain diseases, having a skeletal structure that gives you better balance, etc.

So, there is no one thing that will definitively tell a woman that a man is superior biologically. Which is why they wait until somebody else figures it out for them, whether the man himself or other women.

Men, on the other hand, have some pretty easy to determine indicators to go on - full, healthy looking breasts, wide hips, clear, young looking skin, etc.

This is why the "fake it 'til you make it" strategy works - you're essentially conning women into thinking you have some advantage that you don't really have.

Actually it's pretty easy for women to tell which males have high biological value and it's about as easy for them as it is for us with women. They simply look for those males that are above average in a few central qualities: Height, muscularity, and facial symmetry. Everything else that is tacked on: personality, confidence, and intelligence (Which virtually no one respects in reality) is interesting but secondary in importance.

As for women finding a particular male interesting, that's actually a pretty good indicator that other women will find that male interesting and it builds from there in a positive feedback loop. Because if you look at a male who is above average biologically you'll see that from an early age they'll do slightly to much better with women than their other peers, who may be average to below average, and from this small list of qualities logically follow those traits we see with guys who are "naturals" with women (respect among male peers, popularity with women, confident body language, and comfort when dealing with groups of people because of their history of success in such situations.

As for the "faking it till you make it" it depends on whether a particular male can ever "make it." If a male is a great deal shorter than his male peers how much more difficult would it be for him to get the attention of women who are basically biologically predisposed to seek out taller males? And would those women find such a male ridiculous for acting C&F when by their reasoning such behavior is completely out of place given the male's low value in their minds?

If a given male is scrawny, yet tall he might have a bit more success with women than his shorter peers, but he still doesn't exactly look high value, so how much more effort would have to be expended to get a given woman's attention than if he wasn't scrawny?

And if a male is homely how much effort would he have to expend to get a woman's attention than the male who already has HFS (high facial symmetry)? How many more PU techniques would he have to use than a male, with HFS, who naturally is successful with women without needing to try much at all?

Now, if all this seems irrelevant to some (e.g., I saw a homely midget get a 9!). Just think about the stereotypical portrayals of males who are unsuccessful with women. What features do they possess? Virtually without exception they're shown as being short, homely, scrawny, having bad skin, having high pitched voices, being clumsy, having poor communication skills, etc..

This is not accidental and demonstrates that these characteristics matter a great deal when it comes to having success with women.

Now, if all this seems irrelevant to some (e.g., I saw a homely midget get a 9!). Just think about the stereotypical portrayals of males who are unsuccessful with women. What features do they possess? Virtually without exception they're shown as being short, homely, scrawny, having bad skin, having high pitched voices, being clumsy, having poor communication skills, etc..

Right. I don't think anyone is arguing that someone who is short, ugly, skinny, clumsy, nerdy, and lacks social skills will have trouble getting women. Wait -- except maybe Bill Gates. Or better yet, Warren Buffet. He's 80 with a wife and a girlfriend. Maybe there are more variables. Maybe that homely midget was Danny DeVito. Is he even a midget? Who cares.

Regardless, your example is too extreme. In fact, it's called a Straw Man. Good job.

Everyone DOES, in fact, know plenty of short guys who sleep with many hot women. Everyone also knows plenty of ugly guys who sleep with hot women. There are also short, average looking guys who sleep with hot women. None of them, though, have horrible social skills.

Physically attractive males with horrible social skills get pissed on. Almost everyone with horrible social skills gets pissed on. Physically attractiveness is but one variable. It is far from the most important.

I think we can agree that physically attractive males will get more opportunities than less physically attractive males, though. That alone could make it a numbers game in favor of the physically attractive. Not a surprise. That's what makes it a factor. Not the ultimate factor.

Does anyone else respond seriously to these posts?

Does anyone else respond seriously to these posts?

I used to. He'll try and destroy your argument with something stupid though, so I just give up since it's retarded to argue online, especially when he's a virgin KJ living vicariously through multiple misogyny forums with a (slightly) skewed view of reality (EDIT: And OH BOY, you should see his views on interracial dating! LMAO). Moving on..

Anyway Mr. T, good post, I agree 100% with it and agree that just about everything you said in it is what I have experienced in my life in the past - attractiveness just opens doors, and social ability allows you to walk through it. The two go almost perfectly hand in hand for a 'perfect' combination, but neither is a definite 'need' for any acceptable amount of pussy. A little determination, some playing of the game, and lack of fear of failure will get just about any guy - barring the physically deformed or the sociopaths - laid with some amount of regularity.

Warren Buffet = OB

This is why the "fake it 'til you make it" strategy works - you're essentially conning women into thinking you have some advantage that you don't really have.

Or maybe you really do, but society has taught you to behave in a manner that is self-destructive in the eyes of women.

I know plenty of "good alphas", guys who are seriously good looking, have interesting/unique/cool hobbies, and are set to do well in life. But they lack that cocky/badass/tinge of OB quality that make women feel this way and that. In a sense, cf and dhv's are also secondary indicators of a successful fuckworthy male, and these secondary indicators (ie. cf and whatever various successful dhv's) are directly effective, while a male with great genetic traits (primary indicators) who is asexual, passive, doesn't appear confident, and fails to tug the heartstrings and emotions of women (all possible result s of upbringing, ie. over-dominant father) can fail just as much as a beta male although they may truly possess all the characteristics of an alpha male.

Which brings us back to the argument between Tollan and Mr. T. Tollan is correct in saying that guys with high physical value or high physical attractiveness play a "fools-mate" game. They appear to have good genes which women desire their kids to have, so they generally have easier and effortless encounters with women that lead to sex. In a sense, good looking men have it easier from the get-go, they are approached by both higher quantity and quality of women from the beginning of puberty, and thus are inherently more experienced with women than males who lack this in the beginning. However, physical traits are but one facet of many that make up the diamond which women will forever find attractive.

Generally speaking, the muz's mention of social skills makes up the entire other umbrella of attraction. I really liked his analogy of doors and walking through them, as it is perfect in describing what exactly it takes in order to be viewed as "more than just a friend" by women. Guys with good looks, get approached by hot chicks more often and they may not have a lot of game, but due to the nature of their growing up good-looking, it is highly improbable that they completely lack game/social skills. So let's say that a hot blonde jacked white surfer dude gets approached by 30 women a week. He knows inside from years of experience what to say and in what scenarios he can easily pull a girl, so let's say he bats a 0.33 average (pretty good imo). He hooks up with 10 women a week -- shit that's a lot of ass! But let's take the sort of good looking guy, he's cocky and a little OB, he's got a few piercings, a tattoo, dresses well, but is probably one tier lower in looks than surfer dude. He is approached by maybe 10 women a week, 1/3 of the surfer dude. Let's say that the 2nd guy is me, and I know game, so I pick up the ioi's from the girls that approach me (something surfer dude fails to do sometimes) and I have very good social skills from my internalization and conscious knowledge of social dynamics -- so I pull 5 of the 10 girls who approach me. That's a 0.5 batting average! But it is still only 5 to the 10 girls surfer dude is pulling. Of course I can always improve my game and try to pull 100% of the girls who approach me, or workout/dress sharper in order to increase the quantity of women who approach me, but personally if I was pulling 5 women a week -- I wouldn't be writing a post on this board at 5am in the morning :( .

Anyway, A+ to this thread, there was some good back and forth conversation in here between the new guys and the vets.

will get just about any guy - barring the physically deformed or the sociopaths - laid with some amount of regularity.

impulsive behavior, disregard for social norms, and indifference to the rights and feelings of others.

Sociopaths get laid, trust me.

So let's say that a hot blonde jacked white surfer dude gets approached by 30 women a week.

In continuation with the "walk through the door" analogy: The additional doors that the surfer dude sees are going to have some hinge and alignment issues. Think about the women who, in reality, you've seen do approaches.

The idea of a "feedback loop" existing which causes more attractive males to have better social skills is interesting. I know a lot of attractive males who have horrible social skills, but I suppose they could possibly have been even worse off if they weren't as attractive. Regardless, it's ultimately up to the guy how many conversations he's a part of, even if ugly guys will have to put forth more effort to join conversations.

EDIT: On the other side of the coin, attractive guys will have to put forth more effort to avoid conversations with ugly girls. And gay men.

The idea of a "feedback loop" existing which causes more attractive males to have better social skills is interesting. I know a lot of attractive males who have horrible social skills, but I suppose they could possibly have been even worse off if they weren't as attractive.

Take me, for instance. I'm apparently attractive (I really have no way to judge, as to me all males are physically vile and disgusting creatures). I had girls approaching me in high school and college, but I didn't know how to handle it. In high school and earlier, I was convinced that I was ugly and everyone hated me due to severe depression (I got better). I would reject girls because I thought they were just playing a joke on me.

The idea of a "feedback loop" existing which causes more attractive males to have better social skills is interesting. I know a lot of attractive males who have horrible social skills, but I suppose they could possibly have been even worse off if they weren't as attractive.

Take me, for instance. I'm apparently attractive (I really have no way to judge, as to me all males are physically vile and disgusting creatures). I had girls approaching me in high school and college, but I didn't know how to handle it. In high school and earlier, I was convinced that I was ugly and everyone hated me due to severe depression (I got better). I would reject girls because I thought they were just playing a joke on me.

And you are exactly the kind of guy who can be helped tremendously by a resource like this forum. Good genetics but lacking social training.

I've personally never seen a guy who has worked way above what I would consider his level. I see plenty of guys who, when they are on can get girls in their league, girls they couldn't get when all they did was play video games, but that doesn't mean they can get any girl.

However, just getting a new girl now and then, even if she's pretty average, is above what most guys accomplish. If you're a normal social guy you tend to forget about all the guys living in the abyss. There is no sex in the abyss.

And you are exactly the kind of guy who can be helped tremendously by a resource like this forum. Good genetics but lacking social training.

Actually...

I'm pretty sure the depression was genetic. I've got a cousin who committed suicide, and his mother (my aunt) is bipolar. There are numerous other problems that my cousins and uncle have that would be explained by a depression gene floating around.

On the plus side, all but one of my grandparents are still alive (I think they're in their 70s at the earliest), and the other one only died because he got infected with Hep C from a blood transfusion before they knew what it was. So I've got decent genetics for longevity.


I've personally never seen a guy who has worked way above what I would consider his level. I see plenty of guys who, when they are on can get girls in their league, girls they couldn't get when all they did was play video games, but that doesn't mean they can get any girl.


I still have some level of disbelief towards PUA tactics. If I could see it work I'd probably believe, but before then I don't think so. And having some guy with a camera following you around would likely bring up some suspicion from girls.

Take me, for instance. I'm apparently attractive (I really have no way to judge, as to me all males are physically vile and disgusting creatures). I had girls approaching me in high school and college, but I didn't know how to handle it. In high school and earlier, I was convinced that I was ugly and everyone hated me due to severe depression (I got better). I would reject girls because I thought they were just playing a joke on me.

:(

and I bet all those years of convincing yourself something was wrong with you physically manifested itself didn't it? I say this because I know. I was convinced that I was no good, and some nights I still feel like that guy who got rejected long ago by his oneitis -- and then I see myself in the mirror and I'm like

NAHHHHHHHHHHHHH 8)

:(

and I bet all those years of convincing yourself something was wrong with you physically manifested itself didn't it?

In behavior? Certainly. I remember classmates making fun of me when I was very young (probably 4th grade, maybe a little later). I guess I internalized all that.

I still have some level of disbelief towards PUA tactics. If I could see it work I'd probably believe, but before then I don't think so. And having some guy with a camera following you around would likely bring up some suspicion from girls.

The thing is... that's a really negative mindset to have when approaching this stuff.

It's not about whether these tactics work. It's not even about "tactics."

Just view it as life improvement... about working on the aspects of yourself that still need a little tinkering. Right now, you are what you are. But obviously there are things that you want to improve. There are aspects of your life that you want to get better at. So why not improve?

I know I've beaten this example to death... but honestly, if you have a shitty body, there is nothing left to do but go to the gym and get your ass kicked. Likewise, if there is obviously something missing in your love life, then you need to get out there and get your ass kicked and improve.

Really, every "PUA tactic" can be dissected and viewed as an extension of the actions of naturally confident, sexual men. It's faking it till you make it, essentially. Look at every man in your life who is reasonably successful with women. Really, that's all the proof you should need because if you observe carefully, you will see that these "tactics" are just a naturalized part of how they interact with women.

Just view it as life improvement... about working on the aspects of yourself that still need a little tinkering. Right now, you are what you are. But obviously there are things that you want to improve. There are aspects of your life that you want to get better at. So why not improve?


Because to improve in this way would require making myself cold - treating women as essentially disposable.


I know I've beaten this example to death... but honestly, if you have a shitty body, there is nothing left to do but go to the gym and get your ass kicked.

Swing dancing seems to do that well too. I lost between 10-15 pounds in the last three months.

None of my pants fit anymore :(

Really, every "PUA tactic" can be dissected and viewed as an extension of the actions of naturally confident, sexual men. It's faking it till you make it, essentially.

Like how a salesman does things.

I despise salesmen.

Look at every man in your life who is reasonably successful with women.

I know very few of these people, but the ones that I do are assholes, through and through.

Really, that's all the proof you should need because if you observe carefully, you will see that these "tactics" are just a naturalized part of how they interact with women.

IE, being an asshole.

Shaj, listen man, you're still kind of viewing this from a nice guy perspective. Which hey, if it makes you happy, fine, but realize that the world outside is not nice. Nothing about it was or is nice. It's a cruel world, in reality. If you are a nice guy, you are imposing a set of rules upon yourself that no one else is obligated to go by, nor will they truly look favorably upon you for limiting yourself in such a manner. If anything, being a nice guy is nothing more than a self-manifested desire to fail, or a way for you to protect your ego when you fail - 'Oh, of course I didn't get the promotion/woman/whatever, I played by my moral set of rules and no one else did, I really am better than them, really, I am..'

Assholes, or what people call assholes, are usually the people to succeed in the world. They are the ones that play by the least rules possible. They are the ones to get straight to the point, to cut other people off, to get what they want in the easiest manner possible. And, while you do not have to be a TOTAL asshole for PUA tactics to work, you have to realize that there are certain aspects of the PUA behaviours that will benefit any guy in a social situation if he's looking to get laid more often than he is now. The PUA tactics aren't exactly set things that every girl will fall for through some weird twist of scientific and evolutionary fate; they are instead behaviours that many women will find attractive just because of the values that they project in a male. If at some point the male drops the ball, the ladies will probably move on, but eventually every guy using those 'tactics' WILL develop his own style that works best for him and that he feels comfortable with.

I just recommend looking over the shit, realizing that you don't have to do it verbatim, and instead try to pick out what exactly makes these 'tactics' work for individuals, instead of just lifting shit from a website and hoping that it is a magic pill that will work for every guy out there.

And my rambling is done.

Shaj, listen man, you're still kind of viewing this from a nice guy perspective. Which hey, if it makes you happy, fine, but realize that the world outside is not nice. Nothing about it was or is nice. It's a cruel world, in reality. If you are a nice guy, you are imposing a set of rules upon yourself that no one else is obligated to go by, nor will they truly look favorably upon you for limiting yourself in such a manner.

Hey, I'll lie - but only to people for whom I have no respect. And that's what I think of people who lie to me - they have no respect for me.


If anything, being a nice guy is nothing more than a self-manifested desire to fail, or a way for you to protect your ego when you fail - 'Oh, of course I didn't get the promotion/woman/whatever, I played by my moral set of rules and no one else did, I really am better than them, really, I am..'


I do not suffer from the illusion that asshole tactics don't work - at least in several contexts where the shadow of the future is very short. My personal dream is to master the game better than any of them, and punish them viciously for playing it.

I don't care if I'd become the monster I hate.


I just recommend looking over the shit, realizing that you don't have to do it verbatim, and instead try to pick out what exactly makes these 'tactics' work for individuals, instead of just lifting shit from a website and hoping that it is a magic pill that will work for every guy out there.


You gotta learn by rote before you can truly understand a system and be flexible.

Just view it as life improvement... about working on the aspects of yourself that still need a little tinkering. Right now, you are what you are. But obviously there are things that you want to improve. There are aspects of your life that you want to get better at. So why not improve?


Because to improve in this way would require making myself cold - treating women as essentially disposable.

The fact is.. women ARE disposable... women ARE expendable.. there should be no one in your life who is SO UNBELIEVABLY important that you would just FALL APART and DIE without him/her. To live this way is UNHEALTHY. It is attach your worth and your happiness to a single person.

My perspective is this: center your happiness on YOURSELF. Meaning... take joy from the life you live, the work you do, the friends you have, the women you love, the video games you play, the moral decisions you make... you can suffer setbacks in any one of those areas, but as a complete and self ful-filled individual none of those particular aspects of life should be the focus of your happiness.

What I mean is... eventually, if you reach a certain level of independence and self-centeredness, you can't help but view women as somewhat expendable. If a woman is not giving me what I need, then I need to cut her off. If the timing or the location is bad with a certain woman, I can't be bothered to run around chasing after her. This is what it means when I say women are disposable - not that they shouldn't be treasured, not that they shouldn't be adored or loved... but that they are merely guests in YOUR life, YOUR kingdom and that if one is unhealthy for you, you should be capable of cutting her off.

This is what it means to be confident and strong - to be happy within yourself and be internally centered.



I know I've beaten this example to death... but honestly, if you have a shitty body, there is nothing left to do but go to the gym and get your ass kicked.

Swing dancing seems to do that well too. I lost between 10-15 pounds in the last three months.

None of my pants fit anymore :(

That's cool. But you put in time and effort to learn swing dancing. So what I said still applies.


Really, every "PUA tactic" can be dissected and viewed as an extension of the actions of naturally confident, sexual men. It's faking it till you make it, essentially.

Like how a salesman does things.

I despise salesmen.

Uh.... no. What I meant is that what makes confident men attractive to women can be LEARNED. It's not something you MUST be born with it. It is something that can be cultivated within yourself.

If you are not a confident individual, but decide that you will bolster your confidence and begin acting much more forwardly, taking more chances, ignoring more hits to your self-esteem... well, you are not a truly confident person yet, but you are taking steps to integrate confidence into your life. Eventually, you WILL begin to understand and appreciate your own self-worth. That's what I mean by faking it till you make it. I don't mean pretending to be something that is wholly against your morals and ethical standards.


Look at every man in your life who is reasonably successful with women.

I know very few of these people, but the ones that I do are assholes, through and through.

I'm sorry then. There are plenty of assholes who get a lot of women. There are also plenty of confident, nice men who get a lot of women. I hope you will take my word for this, because I consider myself to be one of those men.

Remember, just because you do not make a woman the center of your life and bend over backwards for her at every opportunity or go wading through bullshit just to fuck her DOES NOT MEAN you are an ASSHOLE. It just means you have balls.

If you think only assholes get women, you are being mislead.


Really, that's all the proof you should need because if you observe carefully, you will see that these "tactics" are just a naturalized part of how they interact with women.

IE, being an asshole.

No. Being confident. Being self-centered... but not at the cost of others. Living for success. Living for independence and strength. And sharing this with others. Letting women enjoy being with you, a man of success and confidence and internal happiness.

If I like to tease a woman or joke with her and make her more comfortable with me, does that make me an asshole? If I don't take her bullshit or, once she is negatively affecting my life, if I cut her off and never see her again, is that being an asshole?

Hey, I'll lie - but only to people for whom I have no respect. And that's what I think of people who lie to me - they have no respect for me.

But, why do you have to lie? I don't lie when I go out, no reason to. Sure, some of those little 'tactics' you see in PUA forums is lying about some dumbass story, but all the stories I tell are the truth.

If you live an interesting life, you have infinite stories to tell and infinite things in common with other people, if you phrase things right. If you don't, I suggest you go out and start living. No one wants to be with a boring individual.

The fact is.. women ARE disposable... women ARE expendable.. there should be no one in your life who is SO UNBELIEVABLY important that you would just FALL APART and DIE without him/her. To live this way is UNHEALTHY. It is attach your worth and your happiness to a single person.

That's not what I'm talking about. It's greeting every new person with hostility - with the attitude "You don't matter. I don't give a shit if you stay or not. You're nothing to me."



That's cool. But you put in time and effort to learn swing dancing. So what I said still applies.

But that was fun. Learning to bullshit isn't fun.


I'm sorry then. There are plenty of assholes who get a lot of women. There are also plenty of confident, nice men who get a lot of women. I hope you will take my word for this, because I consider myself to be one of those men.


I've never seen it. The only ones I've seen get women (beyond just the one they marry) attempt to ridicule me and undermine me the second they meet me. Fuck them.


If you think only assholes get women, you are being mislead.


Then reality itself is misleading me. Of course we all know that reality has a well-known liberal bias.


No. Being confident. Being self-centered... but not at the cost of others.

I don't think you know what "self-centered" means. It's a pejorative.

The fact is.. women ARE disposable... women ARE expendable.. there should be no one in your life who is SO UNBELIEVABLY important that you would just FALL APART and DIE without him/her. To live this way is UNHEALTHY. It is attach your worth and your happiness to a single person.

That's not what I'm talking about. It's greeting every new person with hostility - with the attitude "You don't matter. I don't give a shit if you stay or not. You're nothing to me."

But that's not what I'm talking about. And I'm telling you that you don't need that attitude to be successful in life OR with women.

The image I present to women I meet is this: "I know you are physically attractive, but what more do you have to offer? There is a lot I have to offer, but I don't want to fritter it away on women who cannot reciprocate. Let's get to know each other. Let's see if we are worth it to each other."

I don't think that if this can very easily translate into "I don't give a shit if you stay or not" because it is easy for people to become bitter when faced with the possibility that sometimes things just won't work out their way. Thus, it becomes a sort of defense mechanism, where they truly believe "shit, this woman means NOTHING to me... fuck off!"

However, for me personally, this is not the lifestyle or personality that fits me best. When I see a physically attractive woman, I want to get to know her. But I want her to also understand that my curiosity and my desire for her is not weakness. It's merely an invitation.



That's cool. But you put in time and effort to learn swing dancing. So what I said still applies.

But that was fun. Learning to bullshit isn't fun.

Would you believe me if I said this isn't about learning to bullshit?



I'm sorry then. There are plenty of assholes who get a lot of women. There are also plenty of confident, nice men who get a lot of women. I hope you will take my word for this, because I consider myself to be one of those men.


I've never seen it. The only ones I've seen get women (beyond just the one they marry) attempt to ridicule me and undermine me the second they meet me. Fuck them.

Okay. I cannot speak to your personal experience. However, are you honestly going to compromise yourself THIS MUCH just to score? Or are you so afraid of becoming an asshole that you won't try at all?

Why not take your own path? Why not say "It is not my nature to be vindictive or an asshole, but I have a lot to offer women and I am a strong and confident person. I will go my own path."

I'm challenging you and I'm inviting you.



If you think only assholes get women, you are being mislead.


Then reality itself is misleading me. Of course we all know that reality has a well-known liberal bias.

Have you ever this phrase - "The one with the strongest reality wins." You should have. It's quite common around here. It's FS.com doctrine but it has been quoted several times by posters on these boards.

Be a winner. Be strong and confident. DEFINE your own reality. If someone told me "You can still be true to your CORE values and ALSO be successful with women" I wouldn't say "You're wrong, you have to be an asshole and sacrifice your morals to get chicks." I would say "Okay, now let me see for myself" and go out there and define my own reality. I would take my own steps forward and say "This is who I am, this is not who I am" and see how things unfolded.


No. Being confident. Being self-centered... but not at the cost of others.

I don't think you know what "self-centered" means. It's a pejorative.

It is often used in a negative connotation, meant to refer to someone who is "concerned solely or chiefly with one's own interests, welfare, etc.; engrossed in self; selfish; egotistical."

However, it can also mean: "independent, self-sufficient" and "centered in oneself or itself." This is the sense that I mean it in. Let's not quibble over semantics or superficialities. If you understand what I am saying, let's continue on with that.

Have you ever read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead?" She talks about how man should be egotistical in the PUREST form; how it is man's right to be independent and proud of his own works, his own strength, his own creativity, his own passion. She says that the weakest sort of man is the one who bows down to what others tell him, who surrenders to adversity because he is ultimately not secure in himself and his beliefs and his identity.

Shaj, from your posts, I sense a great deal of bitterness and vindictiveness in you. You seem very eager to denounce the world... and yet, in your anger, you also appear to be willing to quite readily give into the darkness.

I don't mean to sound so spiritual or holistic, but when you get right down to the core of these things... well, they ARE spiritual. They ARE about intangible things, like identity and beliefs and confidence and inner strength.

I hope you can find the strength within yourself to be REASONABLE. To not be so susceptible to emotion. I know you see yourself as a very rational and logical person. You seem very proud of this. And yet... I feel as though much of your logic is spurred on and based on an emotional anger or bias you feel toward women and toward how you perceive inter-gender relations to be.

The ultimate measure of a man is not in how muscular he is or how smart or how well he can manipulate others. The measure is taken in how strong his conviction is IN HIMSELF. This is the core of a successful life and, more to the point, a successful LOVE life, filled with beautiful and life-enriching women.

Right. I don't think anyone is arguing that someone who is short, ugly, skinny, clumsy, nerdy, and lacks social skills will have trouble getting women. Wait -- except maybe Bill Gates. Or better yet, Warren Buffet. He's 80 with a wife and a girlfriend. Maybe there are more variables. Maybe that homely midget was Danny DeVito. Is he even a midget? Who cares.

Your argument is illogical.

You do realize that whatever low biological value Gates, Buffet, and DeVito have because of their physical form it is more than made up for by their vast wealth and fame. It's obvious that social value, if high enough, can allow one to surpass their biological deficits, to give one great success in the mating sphere. That was never in question.


Everyone DOES, in fact, know plenty of short guys who sleep with many hot women. Everyone also knows plenty of ugly guys who sleep with hot women. There are also short, average looking guys who sleep with hot women. None of them, though, have horrible social skills.


It should be understood that social skills are virtually worthless if one's physical form handicaps them to too great an extent (i.e., a male 5 isn't getting a female 8 with his advanced social skills barring extreme expenditure of energy to do so and/or luck) and they don't happen to have extremely high social value to make up for it.

Therefore it should be apparent that consistent or even semi-consistent success in dating high value women when the value differential is too great between the male and female (e.g., a 5 male and an 8 female) is highly improbable. Of course this should be obvious to anyone who gives the issue even a cursory look.


Physically attractive males will get more opportunities than less physically attractive males.

Of course.

Look at every man in your life who is reasonably successful with women.

I know very few of these people, but the ones that I do are assholes, through and through.

Really, that's all the proof you should need because if you observe carefully, you will see that these "tactics" are just a naturalized part of how they interact with women.

IE, being an asshole.

shaj, my best friend since high school is a natural. He isn't an asshole, he isn't OB, and he's not loud/obnoxious or any of that. If anything you might mistake him to be beta because of how quiet and reserved he is. But I got to say amongst the various social circles we are both involved in, women are just throwing ioi's in his face. If you observe carefully, his subtle behavior just exudes sexuality and confidence. He's not super good looking either, just above average in my opinion, and he's a bit skinny so you can throw that whole muscular/fit biological theory out the window -- because he is in many ways an anomaly to those who do not look hard enough.

I introduced him to some basic material: ladder theory and material from bristollair. Sometimes I go into depth about women and male-female attraction, and I've given him a lot of insight about his own behavior. He is a true blue natural through and through.

Here is a pic to help you visualize the idea that you don't have to be an asshole/OB for women to be attracted to you.

http://myspace-860.vo.llnwd.net/01026/06/81/1026011860_l.jpg

Great thread guys, lots of good postings scattered throughout.

The image I present to women I meet is this: "I know you are physically attractive, but what more do you have to offer?


I don't just go after any attractive woman. Most I've found are bitches or otherwise damaged. Usually they have to show some sort of interest in me before I'll even bother talking to them.


I don't think that if this can very easily translate into "I don't give a shit if you stay or not" because it is easy for people to become bitter when faced with the possibility that sometimes things just won't work out their way. Thus, it becomes a sort of defense mechanism, where they truly believe "shit, this woman means NOTHING to me... fuck off!"


Well, I AM filled with rage. And I can't turn my emotions on and off. The only thing I've seen to work at all is to counter one emotion with another - turning rage directed inward into rage directed outward, for instance.


Would you believe me if I said this isn't about learning to bullshit?


I'd believe you if I saw it. I'm something of a scientist, and I don't take things on faith.


Okay. I cannot speak to your personal experience. However, are you honestly going to compromise yourself THIS MUCH just to score? Or are you so afraid of becoming an asshole that you won't try at all?


Compromise myself how?


Why not take your own path? Why not say "It is not my nature to be vindictive or an asshole, but I have a lot to offer women and I am a strong and confident person. I will go my own path."


I can say it all I like, and believe it on an intellectual level. My gut says otherwise.


Have you ever this phrase - "The one with the strongest reality wins."

Repeatedly. I've read the FS forums a good deal.

That forum is also a large part of where the "only assholes get women in any significant numbers" idea comes from. And the phrase itself is an adversarial one. As in, "I will FORCE my reality onto others."


Be a winner. Be strong and confident. DEFINE your own reality. If someone told me "You can still be true to your CORE values and ALSO be successful with women" I wouldn't say "You're wrong, you have to be an asshole and sacrifice your morals to get chicks." I would say "Okay, now let me see for myself"

I'd say "prove it".


It is often used in a negative connotation, meant to refer to someone who is "concerned solely or chiefly with one's own interests, welfare, etc.; engrossed in self; selfish; egotistical."

Yes, that's what it means.


Have you ever read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead?"

Ok, I had a more insulting response, but I went back and changed it. Suffice it to say I have no respect for Ayn Rand or her works.


Shaj, from your posts, I sense a great deal of bitterness and vindictiveness in you. You seem very eager to denounce the world... and yet, in your anger, you also appear to be willing to quite readily give into the darkness.


I don't like hurting people, unless I think they deserve it. And I'm thinking more and more that nearly all women deserve emotional torment.


I hope you can find the strength within yourself to be REASONABLE. To not be so susceptible to emotion. I know you see yourself as a very rational and logical person.

If I was a rational and logical person, I would have written off that girl from my thread weeks ago.


You seem very proud of this. And yet... I feel as though much of your logic is spurred on and based on an emotional anger or bias you feel toward women and toward how you perceive inter-gender relations to be.

See above.

And yes, I realize that though you are trying to help, for some reason I can only attack your points one by one. I don't know why.

If you observe carefully, his subtle behavior just exudes sexuality and confidence.

...

http://myspace-860.vo.llnwd.net/01026/06/81/1026011860_l.jpg

If you say so. I haven't got a clue how to judge such things.

shaj post pics. it would help our analysis.

I don't just go after any attractive woman. Most I've found are bitches or otherwise damaged. Usually they have to show some sort of interest in me before I'll even bother talking to them.

Then that is a problem you need to fix, because most hot girls I've gotten to know have been cool. She only acts like a bitch because you seem like an AFC to her, and thus, not worth the time.

shaj post pics. it would help our analysis.

There's a picture of me (albeit blurry) at the end of this post: http://iwforums.com/showpost.php?p=5373&postcount=12

See shaj I think you just suffer from a poor outlook, and really to succeed in anything you need to have a good, positive outlook. If you go into a situation looking at all the negatives, you are DEFINITELY going to pick them out, meaning that you will NEVER find a situation you are happy with. Self-fulfilling profecies ftl.

Sorry, we can't help you until you realize that not everyone is as awesome as you are. When you realize that everyone has a flaw, although you clearly don't, then maybe you'll begin to see the positives in all those hot chicks you think suck.

I myself like hot girls. They have high value and make it known. And when you are with them, you automatically benefit. Just like if you make yourself viewed as having high value, others will want to be with you because of the natural benefits as well.

That's just the way the world works man. If it makes you unhappy, either deal with it, or realize that you won't succeed like you want to.

More or less, get over yourself. You're not a killer-looking guy, so your attitude better be killer otherwise you've got nothing a high value girl would want.

I think that sums up the situation nicely.

Sorry, we can't help you until you realize that not everyone is as awesome as you are. When you realize that everyone has a flaw, although you clearly don't, then maybe you'll begin to see the positives in all those hot chicks you think suck.

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, or you just haven't read the things I've written.

Sorry, we can't help you until you realize that not everyone is as awesome as you are. When you realize that everyone has a flaw, although you clearly don't, then maybe you'll begin to see the positives in all those hot chicks you think suck.

SARCASM BUTTON BROKEN.

;)

Get over it dude. If you don't value yourself, why the hell would anyone else?

And therein lies the true IW dilemma.

Sorry, we can't help you until you realize that not everyone is as awesome as you are. When you realize that everyone has a flaw, although you clearly don't, then maybe you'll begin to see the positives in all those hot chicks you think suck.

SARCASM BUTTON BROKEN.

;)

Get over it dude. If you don't value yourself, why the hell would anyone else?

And therein lies the true IW dilemma.

Have you been drinking?

Sorry, we can't help you until you realize that not everyone is as awesome as you are. When you realize that everyone has a flaw, although you clearly don't, then maybe you'll begin to see the positives in all those hot chicks you think suck.

SARCASM BUTTON BROKEN.

;)

Get over it dude. If you don't value yourself, why the hell would anyone else?

And therein lies the true IW dilemma.

Have you been drinking?

Yes sir. But honestly, do you see what I'm getting at here? All of your posting that I have read, especially between Flame and yourself, is just you defending your negative viewpoint of everything. It's disgusting. And, if you have such a strong view of how everything sucks, why would anyone, ESPECIALLY a high value female, want to spend their time with you? They could find some guy out there with a good outlook and spend their time with him. Looks only mean so much, and then from there it's all personality, and if yours sucks, even if you're hot as hell, eventually people will get tired of it. I used to be like that (not hot as hell, just negative outlook on everything). I still have those tendencies. But when I deal with new groups of people, I snuff it out. I make sure I am enjoyable. And I have most definitely found that when you are enjoyable, you really make the whole situation you are in that much better. Of course I unwind with some close friends now and then, let my cynicism and hatred out, BS about deep subjects that piss me off, but if I'm out hanging out with new people there is no reason to be like that. You are just cutting yourself short on possibilities, that's all, and if you really think about it, do you REALLY want to be your biggest limiting factor?

And by enjoyable, I don't mean you have to be the center of attention trying to make everyone happy. It can be as simple as just NOT saying all those negative things that you think of. You can be pretty quiet. Actually, I've found that the less I talk about myself, and the more I let other people talk about themselves, as long as I show some interest and maybe drop a few stories that show that we all have something in common, people will adore me. It really doesn't take much work, to tell the truth.

Yes sir. But honestly, do you see what I'm getting at here? All of your posting that I have read, especially between Flame and yourself, is just you defending your negative viewpoint of everything.

Yes, and I noted that at the end of the last one.


It's disgusting. And, if you have such a strong view of how everything sucks, why would anyone, ESPECIALLY a high value female, want to spend their time with you? They could find some guy out there with a good outlook and spend their time with him. Looks only mean so much, and then from there it's all personality, and if yours sucks, even if you're hot as hell, eventually people will get tired of it.

And now you've discovered why I have to lie like a bastard.

I used to be like that (not hot as hell, just negative outlook on everything). I still have those tendencies. But when I deal with new groups of people, I snuff it out. I make sure I am enjoyable.

I can do the former, but that basically means I'm battling my natural tendencies and wind up saying very very little. Then when I've figured out something funny and positive, ten seconds have passed, and the moment is gone.

Shaj is going to be unapologetically weeded out of the gene pool.

UNLESS HE CHANGES HIS WAYS!


...Can he? Stay tuned.

Shaj is going to be unapologetically weeded out of the gene pool.

UNLESS HE CHANGES HIS WAYS!


...Can he? Stay tuned.

As previously mentioned, some of my genes definitely suck.

Plus, as far as I'm concerned, my genetic structure is a parasite using me as a carrier, only to discard me when I die. So fuck my genetic structure. I'll go for immortality.

And now you've discovered why I have to lie like a bastard.

So you honestly don't want to be happy? You'd rather just be miserable? Being miserable makes you content?

Getting out of a rut usually starts with lying to yourself. Drug abuse takes a thought process along the lines of 'No, I won't do xyz substance, I don't want that in my life' even though at the time you might be dying for it. THAT is lying to yourself, isn't it?

Much the same, having a constant negative outlook requires an internal struggle for a while until you are living an actual more positive (substance free, in the case of the abuser) existance. That's just how things work out man, no way around it. Yes, it sucks, but it is worth it in the end.

I can do the former, but that basically means I'm battling my natural tendencies and wind up saying very very little. Then when I've figured out something funny and positive, ten seconds have passed, and the moment is gone.

Then battle them. By saying you give in to your natural tendencies, you are admitting defeat to a side of you that just doesn't help you out. I'm totally the type of person to say what's on my mind, and since I'm relatively intelligent, it's usually snide and assholish, and often it's just rude. Rational thoughts don't help in a game where intuitive, empathetic behavior succeeds. It took me a while to really figure that out, but I did. And I still battle that side of me, I just had to learn when to use it (around people who know me very well and accept that side of me and enjoy it) and when not to use it (around people I just met who are still feeling me out).

And if ten seconds have passed, just don't say anything. You don't HAVE to say shit. And if you think it would actually help to say it, be like.. 'Haha, hey, remember that comment on abc thing? Yeah, I just remembered/just thought of.. wow, dunno how I forgot/I dunno why I didn't think of this then.. I..' and then tell your story/comment. But most of the time, just listening to someone else's bullshit and making a select few comments is much more effective than leading a whole fucking conversation, because usually people who lead conversations wind up looking like people who are just doing it to impress everyone else, and girls read through that bullshit with incredible ease.

Reading Tollan's material is extremely depressing.

So you honestly don't want to be happy? You'd rather just be miserable? Being miserable makes you content?

Getting out of a rut usually starts with lying to yourself. Drug abuse takes a thought process along the lines of 'No, I won't do xyz substance, I don't want that in my life' even though at the time you might be dying for it. THAT is lying to yourself, isn't it?

Ok, now you're not making any sense. You're saying I don't have to lie to myself, then you're saying I DO have to lie to myself.


And if ten seconds have passed, just don't say anything. You don't HAVE to say shit.

This is what I'm normally like in public - near totally silent, or saying something neutral (ie boring). It doesn't work well.

But most of the time, just listening to someone else's bullshit and making a select few comments is much more effective than leading a whole fucking conversation, because usually people who lead conversations wind up looking like people who are just doing it to impress everyone else, and girls read through that bullshit with incredible ease.

Yeah, but there are tons of times when somebody says something to me, and I KNOW that they're looking for some sort of response from me, but I have no idea WHAT response they want. So I end up saying nothing, and blowing it.

Incidentally, this is also why I don't interview well.

Reading Tollan's material is extremely depressing.

It's ok - he's part of the KKK.

Ok, now you're not making any sense. You're saying I don't have to lie to myself, then you're saying I DO have to lie to myself.

Originally, I thought you meant 'lie to people to get what you want', but I was mistaken. I guess I should have noted that. My bad.

This is what I'm normally like in public - near totally silent, or saying something neutral (ie boring). It doesn't work well.

Learn to just ask some questions then. Ask some questions about the shit they do for a living, all that stuff. Ask their opinions on shit. Opinions are often the best things to ask about, because people feel that once you know their opinions you've built some connection or something. Doesn't make any REAL sense, but what about human nature DOES, exactly?

Yeah, but there are tons of times when somebody says something to me, and I KNOW that they're looking for some sort of response from me, but I have no idea WHAT response they want. So I end up saying nothing, and blowing it.

Incidentally, this is also why I don't interview well.

Then don't try and tailor your responses to them. A PUA might do that, but that's because he knows what the fuck to say. If you don't, then just give an answer that won't offend - steer clear from negative phrases and phrases that make people think about negative things. That's all you really need to 'master' - not so much knowing the exact perfect phrase to say, but just knowing not to 'ruin peoples' highs' with negative thoughts when the situation doesn't call for it (which, in most social situations, nothing negative is called for).

That's all I've got for now. Gonna go get drunk again. Enjoy kiddies.

Ok, now you're not making any sense. You're saying I don't have to lie to myself, then you're saying I DO have to lie to myself.

Originally, I thought you meant 'lie to people to get what you want', but I was mistaken. I guess I should have noted that. My bad.

I'll only do that out of spite.

Learn to just ask some questions then. Ask some questions about the shit they do for a living, all that stuff.

Yeah, I do that, but that's boring.

Ask their opinions on shit. Opinions are often the best things to ask about, because people feel that once you know their opinions you've built some connection or something. Doesn't make any REAL sense, but what about human nature DOES, exactly?

Anything I think of would go a little deeper than I think I should go with acquaintances.

Then don't try and tailor your responses to them.

I'll give a for-instance - the one chick in the thread I linked to earlier, when I danced with her during a certain song, she commented that she liked it because it was sexy.

Now, maybe she was just talking, or maybe it was supposed to be a hint. I dunno. I said nothing because I was trying to concentrate on what my feet were supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I do that, but that's boring.

That's one thing, you have to be interested in people. If you aren't then, tough shit. I don't know why a lot of people on this site (not you exactly, just a lot of people on this site) would think that people would be interested in you if you show no true interest in them.

Anything I think of would go a little deeper than I think I should go with acquaintances.

Note the word 'think'.

I'll give a for-instance - the one chick in the thread I linked to earlier, when I danced with her during a certain song, she commented that she liked it because it was sexy.

Now, maybe she was just talking, or maybe it was supposed to be a hint. I dunno. I said nothing because I was trying to concentrate on what my feet were supposed to be doing.

Just respond with something simple and ambiguous then. 'Sexy is fun.. *smile, kino*' would probably work. I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

That's one thing, you have to be interested in people. If you aren't then, tough shit. I don't know why a lot of people on this site (not you exactly, just a lot of people on this site) would think that people would be interested in you if you show no true interest in them.

I don't either. I can fake interest, but not real interest.

Note the word 'think'.

Yeah, but if I could stop thinking for five minutes straight, I would be like unto a god.

Just respond with something simple and ambiguous then. 'Sexy is fun.. *smile, kino*' would probably work.

I was already touching her, via dance. That's how swing dance works. That's not a horrible response though, had I thought of it.


I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

Not in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people, with the rival not ten feet away.

Reading Tollan's material is extremely depressing.



Actually I think it gives one the ability to see where their problems may exist in their physical value, which hampers their ability to do well with women, and indicates that by increasing it one's probability of success will improve.

And it also shows that in addition to increasing one's physical value, their social value (i.e., PU techniques, money, power, and popularity) can also be increased to raise their chances of success.

I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

Not in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people, with the rival not ten feet away.

Yes, in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people with the rival five feet away. Aight.

I'm gonna follow Tollan's advice and start playing the Lotto.

I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

Not in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people, with the rival not ten feet away.

Yes, in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people with the rival five feet away. Aight.

Heh.

Just keep in mind that this isn't like the dance floor at a club. There aren't any multi-colored flashing lights that make it damn near impossible to see WTF is going on. This was normal indoor lighting, and you can see EVERYTHING.

I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

Not in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people, with the rival not ten feet away.

Yes, in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people with the rival five feet away. Aight.

Exactly. Fuck if people are watching, Watch my marvelous talents at work, bitches.

Also, I am drunk, and I am sure that didn't make anys ence. Booyeah.
<3 muz

lol

I just looked t my reply nd lold. lol

fuck

I more than likely would have just fucking kissed her and not said a damn thing. Depends on the situ, though.

Not in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people, with the rival not ten feet away.

Yes, in the middle of the dance floor, surrounded by people with the rival five feet away. Aight.

Heh.

Just keep in mind that this isn't like the dance floor at a club. There aren't any multi-colored flashing lights that make it damn near impossible to see WTF is going on. This was normal indoor lighting, and you can see EVERYTHING.

So? Jesus, you're full of excuses.

So? Jesus, you're full of excuses.

Some excuses are actually valid.

So? Jesus, you're full of excuses.

Some excuses are actually valid.

Not any of the ones that you've provided as of yet.

So? Jesus, you're full of excuses.

Some excuses are actually valid.

Not any of the ones that you've provided as of yet.

Whaaaaatever.

It appears that Shaj's problem is both a lack of desire for change, and a lack of balls to initiate with women. No offense, no suggestions for help yet, just making an observation.

It appears that Shaj's problem is both a lack of desire for change, and a lack of balls to initiate with women. No offense, no suggestions for help yet, just making an observation.

Apparently the idea for moving from the meet to the next phase is to invite the person to something else you're doing.

I don't really do much, so I don't have things to invite people to.

Then invite them to do nothing with you.
Alternatively, do something.

Apparently the idea for moving from the meet to the next phase is to invite the person to something else you're doing.

I don't really do much, so I don't have things to invite people to.

That comprehensively covers the lack of desire for change.